Episode #67: Stop People Pleasing with Sara Bybee Fisk

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Summary

In this episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with the amazing master certified coach, Sara Bybee Fisk, to dive deep into the topic of overcoming people pleasing and perfectionism. We explored the roots of people pleasing, its impact on high-achieving professional women, and Sara's powerful strategies for breaking free from this limiting behavior. Get ready to learn practical steps that will help you reclaim your personal power and embrace a life of authenticity.

If you want to learn how to leverage imperfect moments and overcome the obstacles unique to high-achievers, you can still get the replay of my free webinar: How to Lose Weight for the High-Achiever’s Brain. This webinar will show you your high-achiever tendencies, why they’re delaying your results, and give you the tools you need to correct them. Click here to get it!

What You’ll Learn from this Episode:

• Gain a clear understanding of what people pleasing entails and how it affects your decision-making and self-expression.
• Uncover the origins of people pleasing and discover how early childhood experiences and positive feedback shape this behavior.
• Explore the specific challenges faced by high-achieving professional women and how people pleasing and perfectionism intersect in their lives.
• Dive into Sara's expert strategies and actionable steps for overcoming people pleasing, empowering yourself, and embracing personal freedom.
• Challenge societal conditioning and discover how to break free from the constant need for approval and fear of disappointment.

Listen to the Full Episode:

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Featured on the Show:

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• Sara Bybee Fisk: Website | Podcast | TikTok | Instagram | Facebook
• Sara’s Free Guide: How to Have a Difficult Conversation https://tinyurl.com/stoppeoplepleasing 

Full Episode Transcript:

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• Priyanka: Hey, this is Dr. Priyanka Venugopal you're listening to The Unstoppable Mom Brain Podcast , How to Stop People Pleasing With Master Coach Sara Bybee Fisk. Today I'm bringing on a friend, peer, and master certified coach who is seriously a brilliant human and is a master of how to stop people pleasing. If there's one thing that I know specifically for high achieving professional women is that people pleasing and perfectionism are interwoven into the subtle nuances of your life.

  So I wanted to bring on my friend Sara, who is an expert on this topic. Sarah coaches women on How to Stop People Pleasing, and she's also the host of a very popular podcast called The Ex-Good Girl Podcast. I cannot now wait for you to enjoy this episode where we talk about all things people pleasing perfectionism, and Sarah's going to be sharing her specific strategies on how to overcome it.

  Before we get into today's episode, I want to make sure you know that you can still grab my masterclass, How to Lose Weight with a High Achievers Brain Masterclass over at theunstoppabblemombrain.com/training. It is going to talk you through the three biggest obstacles that high achievers have in hitting their dream ideal weight, and it is going to help you obliterate it.

  Okay? Without further ado, let's get into today's conversation with Master Coach Sara Bybee Fisk. Welcome to the podcast, Sara Bybee Fisk. She is a master certified coach who I've already introduced, but I'm going to have you introduce yourself. Sara, I'm so, so excited to have you on here because this topic is one for the women that have people pleasing in their life. Tell us about you. Welcome. Tell us everything.

  Sara: Thanks, Priyanka. I am genuinely so pleased to be here. I am a master certified coach and instructor. I have been coaching for almost five years. I love teaching. I was a teacher by profession. And then I have five children. So I actually homeschooled them for a number of years.

  Came to coaching later in life when I was answering the all important, what do I wanna be when I grow up question. And people pleasing for me is a very, it's a hundred percent autobiographical. I came to learning how to coach women through their people pleasing and perfectionism, because it was the thing that I just kept running into that was such a limiting part of my life.

  Having to get it right, having to have other people like me, having to have their good opinion, not being able to disappoint anyone. Always having that fear of like getting it wrong. Am I doing it right? Is this the right way? I have just found such freedom on the other side of that, that it's like the conversation I wanna have forever and ever and ever.

  Priyanka: I love what you're saying and I totally feel that freedom piece, like when you get to the other side of it, that there is such sweet, I call it sweet relief. When you start to see how it's been limiting us. And we're gonna talk today about really what creates people pleasing, why we do it, the impact of it, and then Sara's gonna be sharing some steps on how to start solving it.

  But can you tell us. Because what you described was a little bit of both. Some perfectionism was in there, but also people pleasing. So how do you, in your words, define people pleasing and how specifically did it use to show up in your life where you were like, this is a problem?

  Sara: Well, my definition of people pleasing is having the internal experience of lack of choices because of what other people will think or say about your decision. So it's literally feeling like you're at a buffet of all of this different food and you're like, I can't have that because of what she will think. I can't eat that because of what he will think. I can literally only eat this one or two dishes from this entire buffet because of what other people will think about me or say about me if I deviate from their expectations of me.

  So it's that limited stuck feeling.

  Priyanka: Yeah, I, okay. Yeah, so, so I can, I like that we're using the buffet example because as we know, a lot of what we do in this podcast is how people hit their body goals. And I think that this is something maybe we'll talk about too later on the podcast episode around how people use people pleasing to eat in social situations. . But just kind of coming back to the metaphor in our lives, a lot of high achievers, and I think women especially have been socialized to look at what other people are thinking and feeling and what they might say to drive how we should be showing up. So tell us a little bit more about like, where does this even come from?

  Like why, why is this even a thing? I don't think that we're born this way. Like when I was zero, one and two, I don't think I really cared about what other people were really thinking about me. So where did this come from? Why is this such a problem?

  Sara: You didn't care about what other people thought of you, but you were definitely learning to pick up on feedback that you got from the big people in your life, your caregivers, your parents, your grandparents, other people who took care of you, because we are biologically programmed to survive, to do what it takes to survive.

  And maybe everyone can picture a baby, right? A, a baby comes into the world being completely unable to take care of itself. It can't change its own diaper. It can't get its own food. It can't put itself to sleep. And so it needs the big people to do that. So in our DNA is this need to be cared for.

  And as the baby grows, it recognizes, okay, when I cry this, this primal cry that I'm just programmed with something happens. Someone comes and picks me up, so hopefully, right. We actually know that there are very sad situations in which babies stop crying when they know that that cry will not be answered with care.

  And so, but in a, in a healthy or somewhat healthy circumstance, baby cries, someone comes, picks it up, cuddles it, changes, it feeds it, swaddles, it puts it to sleep. And so that is one of the earliest connections that a baby's brain makes. I cry, there's a response, I cry. There's a response. And so that's how it gets its needs met.

  As the baby grows, their field of observational powers also grows, and they start recognizing, Feedback from the big people that is positive and feedback that is negative. If you've ever been holding a baby and the baby smiles and is being held by an attentive, loving caregiver, usually the caregiver responds with like, oh my gosh, and the caregiver gets a big smile and responds with, with a affirming behavior, and the baby connects, oh, they like that, and the baby smiles more. And then there's a, a response system that starts to emerge where mom or dad or somebody tickles the baby and smiles and the baby smiles back. So there becomes this reciprocal relationship of there's a behavior and I get a reward.

  There's a behavior, and I get a reward. And whether that reward is my diaper is changed or I just get snuggled or I get food, it doesn't really matter to the baby. The baby doesn't have necessarily the cognitive skills to evaluate that. It just knows it needs it and likes it.

  Priyanka: It's almost like the sense I'm getting is like every time they get that positive response, the baby's learning. This is how I get taken care of.

  Sara: Yes.

  Priyanka: This is how I get taken care of.

  Sara: Yes, that is exactly it.

  Priyanka: Yes. Okay.

  Sara: This is how I get my needs met.

  Priyanka: Yeah. And I wonder whether there, and I think that, I mean, the way that I, I've often thought about my own, cuz I'm a chronic people pleaser from a very young age, is, I think it created a lot of safety for me, in a sense.

  Sara: Absolute.

  Priyanka: I had that positive response. Like if my parents, uh, or the teacher, for me, it was like the teacher, if the teacher's eyes light up, you know, Priyanka has the right answer. Like I got the sense of I, I'm getting it right. I felt adequate, I felt taken care of. I felt safe in having those positive responses, and so what you're describing kind of is like over years and decades, our brain just creates habits with...

  Sara: Correct.

  Priyanka: Reading that response.

  Sara: That is exactly it. And then as the baby grows up, more people come in, teachers, religious leaders, community leaders, maybe other family members that the child looks to establish that same positive feedback of like, I behave in a certain way, I get a reward. And the reward is belonging, friendship, communication, connection.

  Knowing you have a place in this you know, this group, we are, we are tribal by nature and by DNA, you know, programming going back hundreds and hundreds and thousands of years. And so you have a place here, you belong here, you're doing it right. You are getting it right. I am affirming you. So whether that's, whether that's happening when you know the right math answer or whether you are at church and you feel the, the approval of other people that approval is survival.

  Priyanka: Right. It's like you're not getting kicked out of the group. You're not going to get kicked out of the herd.

  Sara: Exactly.

  Priyanka: So that's why it really taps into safety. So I mean, from everything that you're describing, it almost sounds like this is a really good thing, which is probably why we are hardwired for it.

  Sara: It's a great thing you and yeah, you and I are here today because we were very good people pleasers.

  Priyanka: Yes. Yes. Okay, so it's okay. So everyone listening, don't be hard on yourself. This is like hardwired, it's meant to be a good thing, but it obviously turns into a problem at some point along the way, which is also why we are here, right?

  We're here because it also has turned into a problem. So can you kind of talk about that moment or maybe like those moments in our probably young childhood where it was working, it created safety, it created connection, probably with the big people in our life. At what point along the way do you feel, at least for you and your story, did it start turning into a problem and how do we then start kind of navigating that?

  Sara: The fascinating question. I have an answer. I don't know that it is, you know, the one answer that is, that is right. And I, I encourage everybody just to think back over your own experience because there are concurrent things that are happening at the same time. Right. Let's just say that for the most part, our caregivers were good people doing the best they could.

  I know that that's not always an easy assumption, but just for the sake of this conversation, let's just assume that for a minute because a another practice that is happening at the same time that I'm learning this behavior, reward, behavior reward, I'm also learning behavior punishment. Right. I'm also learning, learning what behaviors get me punished, which is usually disconnected or disapproved of.

  Yeah. And then there's another practice going on that is disconnection from myself. And so these people who are mostly doing their best, who were raised by imperfect people themselves, They're telling me things like, finish your food. And I'm saying, mom, but my, I'm full. And mom says, I don't care. Finish your food.

  So I'm being disconnected from the very sensations in my own body that are there to teach me about what it feels like to be full. And I'm being taught to ignore that, to please my mom. Now is she doing this to me in a vindictive, vicious, um, you know, manipulative way? Probably not. But nonetheless.

  Priyanka: It's something that she's learned, right?

  Sara: Exactly. Exactly.

  Priyanka: And actually, there's one thing I wanna say about that specific example, because I think most of us, most of us have probably grown up with that, like finished the food on your plate. . And, there's also a, a layer of that, which is a little bit of a shaming that don't, you know, that there are people that don't have food in the world. Don't you know that there are hungry people? Like it's so like how ungrateful of you to not finish what you have on the plate. And so I think that that's kind of, so there's a first layer, which is like finish what you've been given. Kind of like that's just the rules of our family.

  Then there's a second layer of like, you should be grateful. Yes. And the fact that you're not finishing means you're not grateful. And so what we learn over time is let's just disconnect from the natural signals our body is giving us and let's just finish the food on our plate. Right. The Clean plate Club or Right.

  Let me please the grownups in my life so that I am not being delinquent in this one thing.

  Sara: Yes. And what ends up, what that ends up setting up is I have to sacrifice connection to my myself to have connection to this big person, this caregiver, this parent, whoever, this teacher, whoever it is. And so whether it's, I don't wanna give grandpa a kiss. I don't care. He's your grandpa. You go give him a hug and a kiss or, um, I'm not sorry. And you're telling me I have to apologize to be able to get back into the connection of all the other students, but I'm not sorry. Okay. That means I'm going to forego connection to myself to please the adult.

  It happens in hundreds of different types of scenarios where at the same time that we are learning some rewards, some be some behaviors are rewarded, some behaviors are punished. My disconnection to myself is what enables me to stay connected to the adults because very few adults are asking children, Hey, how do you feel about this?

  What's in your body right now? Are you comfortable with this? And teaching us that our bodies and the sensations and feelings in them matter. It has been, I mean, my dad and mom were the like seen and not, you know, children are seen and not heard generation, and I think I am the like, we're past that a little bit, but we're not actually asking you how you feel about things and asking for your input.

  That's more of like what I'm trying to do with my own children, but not even super recently. So we're coming into this, I think, style of parenting and relating to young children where we realize, oh, they're not just lumps of clay to be molded into what we think they should be.

  Priyanka: Right, actually. Right. They're not gonna follow along with exactly what we said just because we said it. Right? Yes.

  Sara: Right. Like, like how do I actually help this person know who they are, what they believe, what they feel, and that that matters. That is still fairly new in terms of parenting and it is, I will say at this point, I think a privilege.

  Because there are so many people who are worried about like getting basic needs met, that the time to sit down and talk about how little Priyanka or little Sara is feeling about their day, there might not be a lot of that.

  Priyanka: So it feels like an indulgence or a luxury. I think it does, that is something, and, and we should totally talk about that because I'm gonna put it, I'm gonna, we have to talk about that because that is something that I find again, women will turn what might be part of their circumstances into a weapon against themselves.

  Like, oh, it's kind of a luxury or an indulgence to talk about our feelings. And it seems like a, I'm gonna put it in quotes, like a waste of time. Like there's so many more important pressing things, and what you and I are talking about is how really giving that the significance and attention that it deserves will save you years of strife and suffering.

  I mean, years off of your life. But I just wanna kind of come back to one thing you said, and this is something that I find again with high achievers, is we've learned little Priyanka or little Sara was told, listen, go do this thing even though it feels wrong in your body. And I think what has happened for childlike brains is we assumed that the adult was right.

  Sara: Yes, of course.

  Priyanka: We made the assumption because we're just quote unquote just children. We assumed that the adult who is in charge of our food, our shelter, taking care of us, that they must be right. So what we have then also subconsciously done is we have assumed that we are often wrong. So if we are, if we feel the discomfort in our body, like the people, like let's say we decide to not people please, or we decide, I, I don't wanna finish my plate, or I'm willing to challenge the narrative, it feels uncomfortable.

  I think that what a lot of women especially do is we make that discomfort mean we are doing something wrong. And I wanted to challenge that narrative because that's what holds us back from, I think, challenging the rules. I think that a lot of us are People pleasers, right? So we wanna follow the rules.

  And what we are talking about is how do we challenge the narrative?

  Sara: It's so true. But children developmentally cannot not internalize.

  Priyanka: Yes. Right?

  Sara: They don't have they, that, that is developmentally. And, and in terms of, you know, I, I was a teacher. I taught preschool, kindergarten, third grade. Sixth grade.

  And so I got to see this like, Brain development over time of children and all the child development classes that I took really helped me to see that absent another explanation, the kid will always make it their fault. Right?

  Priyanka: A hundred percent.

  Sara: And, and, and whether, whether that shows up externally or not.

  So I think what you're saying, it's so important because one of the skills that we as now older women need to have is the power to externalize right to, to take it out of, it's my fault there's something wrong with me. I did this, I caused this. And to shut that down in favor of like, what else could be at play here?

  Or what if this isn't about me? What if I'm not doing it wrong? What if this isn't proof that I am somehow extra special, super broken? And, then what possibilities open up to me there.

  Priyanka: Yeah.

  Sara: So you, you asked me like, when did this, when did I notice this becoming a problem? And if we could go back to the buffet for a minute, it's when I saw myself metaphorically standing at the buffet.

  I have a plate. I have the same size plate as everybody else, but everybody else seems able to eat from wherever they want. And I am like, I can only have these two things. That seems weird. That's interesting. How did that happen? It's when I got some perspective on like, why is, why is this happening? Why does it that she seems to be able to make whatever decisions she thinks is best for herself and she is maybe disappointing other people.

  She's not worried about what other people think. Why am I so worried about that? What is, what has the process been like? How did I get here? I think is, is the best way of saying it. And so that ability to kind of look at myself from the outside. This externalization like, interesting. Why is it that I don't seem to be able to have the same freedom of choices as other people do?

  I technically do, right? So that's when I began to just take a look at why don't I feel like I have the same freedom as everybody else?

  Priyanka: Was there like a specific thing that happened for you where you saw that or like was there, I'm just wondering because like, I mean if you feel comfortable sharing.

  Sara: Of course.

  Priyanka: Something in your life that, that, cuz I can imagine that, that we can like intellectually understand what you're saying, but I wonder whether there was a specific experience that drove you to that moment where you're like, wait a second. How come she gets to make these decisions and I don't like, what was that experience for you?

  Sara: So I was raised in a very conservative religious group. Uh, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. They're known colloquially as the Mormons. And I am Mormon, like on both sides of my family. Like, you know how they say it's turtles all the way down, it's Mormons all the way down for me.

  You know, from the very earliest, uh, beginnings of the church, my ancestors joined that congregation and, and so it was just this part of who I was culturally, um, in terms of my fam, both sides, my dad's side, my mom's side. And so I grew up Mormon at like thoroughly as thoroughly as that could be a part of my identity it was.

  And so, um, The LDS faith has a lot of religious beliefs, and I believed all of them. I practiced all of them. I, I was as good a Mormon as you could be, and at the same time, I always had this nagging like, I'm not doing enough. I'm not doing it right. God's not happy with me. I have to do more. I have to try harder.

  I have to, there was always this urge to do more, to be more, to be better, and that is very much baked into a lot of religious experiences, um, and particularly, um, Mormonism. And so, um, it worked really well for me. There are literal lists of things to check off that you're doing right. Right.

  And you can, yeah, you can measure your rightness by the reactions of other people to you. And so it, for my little perfectionist people pleaser heart it it worked really well except for the unsettled hypervigilance that was growing inside of me, of like, am I doing it right? Is this enough? Is it enough?

  Is it enough? Is it gonna work? Is I, I, am I who, you know who, who is happy with me? Who's unhappy with me? Is God happy with me? And so all of that was fine. Until there were things in religious dogma and theology that didn't sit right with me. Mm. Um, it started out the, the Mormon Church has a view of LGBTQ people that they are, um, not, you know, in a bad and sinful themselves, but what they're doing is sinful in living the gay lifestyle, gay sex, gay relationships, gay marriage.

  That's wrong. And it unsettled me, and again, because I'm disconnected from myself, my initial reaction is, oh, that's a sign that I need to try harder. I need to believe more. I need to [00:23:00] like that. There's something wrong with me. Why this is not settling well with me. If all these people outside of me say that this is what God says and I don't believe it, then it's a me problem.

  It's a faith problem. And so I kind of struggled with that for a while. But then, um, Just the longer that I wrestled with this issue of like, there are people who are gay and I believe God made them that way. They believe they're made this way. How could a loving, uh, God, you know, disavow part of their children?

  It just would not make sense. And the more I thought about it, um, a lot of conservative religions have this idea of like, you don't need to think too deeply about it. We've done the thinking for you. This is what God says, and we just, you just need to believe that God told us what to tell you. That is very much a feature of LDS religion.

  And so the more I did my own thinking though, I just thought, this just doesn't make sense. And so that's kind of where my heart was when I just thought like I think the church is wrong about this, and that was such a deeply scary thing for me to think like, how could I, this mom, mama, five kids in Arizona.

  How could I have a truth or how could I know something that other people didn't seem to know? It just was mind boggling to me, and yet I couldn't un-know or unfeel what I was feeling. So it was the first time where I think I chose me. Like I chose, this is what I believe and I don't know what's gonna happen.

  I don't know what's going on here, but this makes no sense. So I went on that way for a little while and then um, in 2016, my daughter came out. Hmm. To me at our kitchen table. And that's when I just thought this, we can't keep doing this. We can't. And again, if you picture me, I'm standing at the buffet.

  Other people are, they're, they're all kinds of different religions. They're, or no religion. They're, they're behaving in ways like the Mormon church has a health code, you know, no alcohol, no coffee, no tea, no drugs out, you know, the heroin and cocaine kind. Um, and yet, People are drinking and having coffee and, and, and like, I literally felt like I could not, it was not a choice for me.

  But then I thought, that's so interesting. Like why isn't it a choice? Like technically I could, what would it take? It would take disappointing my parents. It would take, leaving this religious fold. That is literally like my whole life, my whole community, all my friends, all my children's friends, all of my associates and, and where I serve and learn and work. And, um, it would take leaving that.

  Priyanka: I mean...

  Sara: That's what it works.

  Priyanka: The sense I'm getting though is like, it would take you being brave and it sounds like that's exactly what you did. Like the, you know, it's, it's so fascinating because what you're talking about, I think it happens in probably religious communities and in cultural communities. For me, growing up, I didn't grow up in a very religious household, but everything you're saying is how I felt about academics.

  Sara: Yes.

  Priyanka: It's so fascinating because we can transplant some of these thought paradigms into so many women, specifically women's brains on how to be, because I used to feel like I'm not doing enough.

  I should do more, I could do better. And like, you know, maybe the a minus should be an a plus or maybe that like yes. Somehow. And if I, and what you said really struck a chord, if there's no other explanation like, who am I to challenge this paradigm? It must be me. There's no other better explanation. It must be me.

  I must be somehow inadequate in some, some, some place here. How is it that we can start challenging that? And I think, you know, I kind of have chills thinking even thinking about this, but I feel like it took bravery to be willing to, not that you always have to choose differently. You might have done your own exploration and decided, you know what?

  I actually want to maintain, you know, being in this community or I want to maintain this religion, or I wanna maintain this, this mindset. But be willing to look at it, I think is what takes the bravery. Cuz you're saying, wait a second, I'm challenging the grownups in my life. I'm challenging my community and it might mean something really uncomfortable. Which is disappointing all of these people.

  Sara: The, yeah, challenging the authority. And what I have learned is exactly what you just said, is that my experience, although it happened within this particular religious community, it is everywhere. There is a set of rules that is established. There are roles that are handed out to people, and when you have to challenge those rules and roles, it is an act of bravery that can only be motivated by a reward greater than what you got by keeping the rules.

  Priyanka: Absolutely. Absolutely.

  Sara: And whether it's, yeah.

  Priyanka: Go ahead.

  Sara: Whether I've heard it from doctors who are like, I can't change the whole system of how doctors are trained and, and, and what we expect of doctors. And on the outside, you're looking at this whole, you know, system of medicine is this very benevolent, very altruist, you know system, but it really harms people.

  It really harms them by disconnecting them literally from the signals their own body is giving them for sleep, to pee for, , to rest and making them continue to work. It happens in cultural groups where there are often, you know, immigrant families where there's a very specific set of rules and roles.

  It happens everywhere. The initial act is always one of bravery, but it's motivated by like, I, I can't lose myself again. If I go back into the system, I lose myself. I am lost, and I am disconnected from myself, and if I stay connected to myself, it's also going to be uncomfortable. But it's a type of discomfort that has an ending.

  And that's the one thing that I discovered is that if I were to go back into, let's just say Mormonism and the people pleasing and the perfectionism, that is a very specific type of known, understood, familiar discomfort, and I know how to act in that, but I become disconnected from myself, my wants, my needs, and creating my own life.

  If I choose not to, it's also uncomfortable, but it's a discomfort, like lifting weights at the gym. I start with five pounds, and eventually five pounds is no problem, and I go to 10. Then I can go to 12, then to 15, and I actually get better at managing the discomfort of disappointing other people, of creating my own life, of really choosing and finding what I want and honoring it. It actually gets better.

  Priyanka: I love, so I think that, I mean, this is what I'm hearing, that there's a bitter pill, my friends, and the bitter pill is that there's discomfort with both. And it's, so I love that we're getting to talk about this because this is exactly what we talk about when it comes to hitting your dream ideal weight.

  Changing and challenging the status quo of what you want for your body is going to require discomfort. And so there's discomfort with keeping the status quo, and there's discomfort with challenging the status quo. And I think what we're kind of talking about is if you kind of flash forward to the end result, which one?

  Which one is your desire? Which one is the desire that you have? What if you chose your flavor of [00:31:00] discomfort on purpose? Right? It's better, right? Like there is no, there is no such thing as not having the discomfort, but I think that it takes bravery to choose a discomfort on purpose rather than keeping the familiar, which is like, I know how to navigate this kind of discomfort. I could just keep this.

  Sara: I like to be careful. I know that there are circumstances in which women choose to people please or to perfectionate, because it serves them and it serves a greater outcome. For example, if there is a woman who has, a relationship at work where her continued employment is predicated on her being a people pleaser in a particular way and she knows it and she chooses it on purpose. Like this is just how it is at work. I know my reasons for choosing to people please and I like them cuz I get to keep this job that I want right now. I think that's a decision that she is free to make. I really try not to step on anyone's decisions as bad or wrong.

  I prefer instead to look at the outcome and say, is this a desired outcome or an undesired outcome? And even if a, you have an undesired outcome for a little while, but on the other side of that, you can see that there is, you're working toward a desired outcome. I just don't like to make a whole lot of rules, and that's probably because I came from a whole lot of rules about what your behavior needed to be like.

  And what we know is that there isn't one right way to do anything. There's no one right way to be a mom, to be a feminist, to be a doctor, to be a right. And it's so deeply connected to how you feel internally. Like I think that's the only guide. I think that's the only guide that matters.

  Priyanka: Right? So I think that kind of what I'm hearing is like, you know, when you decide to choose a perfectionist way of thinking about something or if you decide to people please, but you're choosing it like you can see it, your eyes are wide open to, it's kinda like what you were exploring even when you were challenging, you know, your religious community, you are seeing it clearly and then you were choosing.

  Sara: Yes.

  Priyanka: And I think that that's the point that you're making is like you get to actively choose as opposed to maybe what, before this conversation, before we've ever thought about people pleasing or perfectionism as even a concept, maybe we were just driving subconsciously, we didn't know that we were people pleasing or perfectionists in the background and allowing ourselves to have language to it and know that we're doing it, then we get to decide, yeah. Whether it's somebody that's serving us or not.

  Sara: That's exactly it. And even that awareness and power to choose is important. And so when I am teaching someone like how to stop people pleasing, thevery first step I just call pause.

  Because we are so used to being kind of swept away by our habits to please and to perfectionate, that if we can just develop a little bit of awareness around, oh, this is someone is asking me to donate my unpaid time, energy, and effort. Usually I just say yes, because my idea is that I should, but if I pause, what do I want to do?

  What do I, what is important to me? And sometimes it's to say yes, right? Sometimes it's to go along with let's, you know, let's, let's consider, you know, someone who is invested in their school community and really wants to be an involved player at school, and they're asked to take on an unpaid PTO role, right?

  Super common. So in the moment of being asked. A pause would look like, you know what? I wanna think that through and get back to you. It's a memorized phrase that you use to buy you some time or, oh, that sounds so fun. Thank you for thinking of me. I'll circle back and let you know if that's something that I can do, or, great I'd love to check on that and get back to you. Do not say yes in the moment right away.

  Priyanka: Right away. So good. I love it. Yes.

  Sara: That's, that's the patterned response. Like, yes, I'll do it.

  Priyanka: My new trick is like, oh yeah, of course. Like, oh look, let me, of course. And I'm like, I'm like taking out my phone right that moment, looking at my calendar. I'm like, oh yeah. So that's the time it's on there. Got it.

  Sara: The assumption is yes. The assumption is yes, of course. And we wanna do is we just wanna pause on that assumption because the second, um, step, you need to really pretend. And what I mean by that is pretend you say yes.

  Okay? Yeah. So you've been, I've been asked to oversee the school carnival. Okay. If I say yes, that's going to look like six hours setting up and taking down. I have to call all the vendors and make sure that they have their stuff ready to go. I have to schedule the bounce house and all of the food trucks to be there.

  So each of those, that's probably let's, we're looking at like 12 hours of work. Okay. If I say no, what will that be like? Okay. I will probably be feeling guilty. I will probably not wanna go to the school carnival because I'm guilty that I didn't head it up. You know, and I'm feeling kind of this guilt and this, um, anxiousness about what other people are thinking.

  Oh, she'll come to the school carnival, but she won't, you know, she won't be in charge of it, right? So, right. Once I pretend that's literally forecasting, what is it gonna be like to say yes? What is it gonna be like to say no? Including which uncomfortable emotions am I gonna be feeling? If I say yes, maybe some resentment, some overwhelm.

  I gotta figure out where I'm gonna put 12 hours of work into the next, you know, couple weeks if I say no, some guilt, some anxiousness, maybe worrying about what they think of me. That is the pretending part. You pretend you take both paths and to the best of your ability, you name all of the cost to you cuz this is what we never do.

  Priyanka: Yeah. Actually give this a fair shake. Give this a fair shake. Yes. It's like, I think, and, and Sara tell me if this is true for this step, because I find that sometimes I will give one side so much more like a significance, cuz my brain is so used to building that side of the argument. And so like really give both sides a fair shake.

  Yes. Okay. Yes. I had to add that in. Okay. Keep going.

  Sara: Absolutely. Yeah. Because what we want to do, what I love what you just said, is in our heads we can talk ourselves into almost anything. But step number three is actually to go into your body and to ask the question. Now that I know, now that I've done my best to pretend and to forecast, I need to pick what do I want?

  Like not up here in my head, but in my body. When my body thinks about taking on the job of overseeing the school carnival. What, how does my body feel about that? When my body thinks about saying no and just attending as a parent? What does my body think of that? Or how does my body feel? And that's what my body think.

  So you choose based on how your body feels and what you are choosing to be clear is the discomfort that you want to feel on purpose. Right? Cuz we've already established it's uncomfortable either way.

  Priyanka: This, this is not, we're not going to land it like rainbows where one just happens.

  I mean, sometimes maybe, but possibly. Yeah. Often. Often, like we're choosing our flavor of discomfort. And what you're saying in this step is like really connecting back with yourself when maybe you've had a history of disconnecting. And often giving one side a lot of value at the expense of the other side.

  Really giving both sides the fair shake and reconnecting with your body, which has a lot of wisdom.

  Sara: A hundred percent Yes. Consent can only be felt in the body.

  Priyanka: Yes. Yeah.

  Sara: In our, in our heads, we can talk ourselves into all kinds of things. With all kinds of reasons and all kinds of evidence. But if you can connect with the part of your body where it's like a, a yes or a no or like a pulling forward or a pushing back, or a uhhuh or an Uhuh, I've heard this described by all kind, you know, women in all kinds of ways, but there is a response from your body, and you can trust that.

  Priyanka: Yes.

  Sara: So then once you feel the body response, then you process that like, You process that discomfort. Let's say that you choose not to head up the school carnival. Okay. What you were signing up for is some anxiousness and some guilt and some worry, so, Big breaths.

  What does that feel like? Like getting comfortable with that emotion in your body and all the sensations that it creates as a way of processing it and befriending it. Like, yeah, I knew you were gonna be here. This isn't a surprise. It doesn't mean anything has gone wrong. That's the most important part because we are taught that negative emotions means something has gone wrong.

  And nothing has gone wrong here. I am choosing this on purpose. Yes. Breathing, guiding, loving, connecting to those emotions as evidence that I'm actually doing it right. If I'm feeling guilty, if I'm worrying about what other people think, it's because I've made a hard decision. Of course I'm gonna have this.

  This makes so much sense, but this negative emotion me. And how brave of me. Yes.

  Priyanka: I love that. Like, and you know, I just wanna kind of put one caveat here because I feel like sometimes, and Sara, I'm curious about your experience with this, but like when we feel that discomfort, we feel the worry or the nervousness or the anxiousness of choosing in this way, maybe especially for you to always saying yes.

  And now we're saying no. That sometimes we use that as an indicator to not trust ourselves. Like, Ooh, I must be doing something wrong if I'm feeling this way. The familiar yes, would've been so much better. And then we use it kind of to negative self-talk and judge our decision. Or kind of second guess the decision.

  So like what do you think about that piece of it where you can really believe, I can trust myself, this is okay, I chose this and befriending that process and not second guessing yourself.

  Sara: That's why it's so important to have paused. And then done the pretending because you can remind yourself like, Hey, we thought this through right to the best of our ability.

  We considered everything possible and we made a decision, and now we get to stick to our decision. And a really essential part of this that I teach throughout, you know, these steps, is to have your own back. Which to me means whatever discomfort I'm feeling, I'm just gonna feel that discomfort. And not ever, ever, ever, ever, ever pile on self-criticism, judgment, second guessing, self-doubt, berating myself.

  Like I will never do that if I'm uncomfortable, cuz I've chosen to just go to the school carnival. I'm just gonna be uncomfortable and go, but I will not tell myself see, they're all looking at you. What's the matter with you? You should have just said, yes. Everybody knows that you were offered the position and you chose it.

  You know, chose not to do it. You must be selfish. You must be self-centered. You must be worried more about, right. We have so much training to do that we could do a whole complete other podcast episode. Just about the essential skill that it is to not beat yourself up.

  Priyanka: Yes. Absolutely.

  Sara: But to me that is at the heart of it. Like I chose this anxiousness, I chose this worry, I chose this guilt, and I'm just going to feel that without piling any of my criticism and judgment on top.

  Priyanka: The biggest, like the visual that's coming to my mind is I'm imagining this compass where we have been so often driven by external validation, like externally, like the the big adult in your life, the parent, the teacher, the grandparent, and that was where we were getting our sense of direction of where we should go and what your steps is kind of giving me a reminder of is I'm now toggling that compass to internal validation.

  Sara: Yes.

  Priyanka: So however I choose whether, and that choice, kind of speaking to what you were saying earlier, that choice might mean that I say yes to the carnival. That choice might mean that I choose that option, but it's not coming from external validation.

  I've internally validated why that decision makes sense for me and I feel like that is probably the hardest. I mean, I'm just gonna say this is just my thoughts about it, but that's been my personal hardest thing. I'm so used to external validation.

  Sara: Yeah.

  Priyanka: That the idea of internally validating feels foreign. Like where I, I need a bank account for where is it? It's empty right now. And I think what you're saying is a practice where we start to build the bank account of internal validation to create that trust.

  Sara: A hundred percent. And the trust is created by knowing that no matter what, I will not beat myself up over this.

  Let's say that later on, I think you know what, I should have, I should have done the carnival. I wish I would have, even if later, I think I should have made a different decision. I still am not gonna beat myself up over it. I'm gonna take it as information. I'm gonna use it in my future decisions, but I will never, ever, ever berate myself because if I am not safe with me, I am not safe anywhere because I'm with me all the time.

  Right, and so if my own judgment and criticism follows me wherever I go, there's no place that I'm safe. But if I know that I am the only place or the sure place where there will be no judgment and criticism, then I can take on risks because I know that at worst, I'll wish I had made a different decision.

  I will feel that regret, that remorse, whatever it is, and I'll move on.

  Priyanka: I wonder if also taking that piece out of it, the judgment and the plane, like making the agreement that we're just not doing that. I wonder whether that also creates more space for trust, like however we choose.

  Sara: Oh, a hundred percent.

  Priyanka: Even if it is wrong, like let's say it is the wrong answer and we have evidence that it was the wrong answer.

  Sara: Yeah.

  Priyanka: But we can trust that. Okay. Like we can just inform our next decision differently next time.

  Sara: A hundred percent. It's such an essential piece that women are not taught, but that perpetual self-doubt keeps us from making big decisions all the time.

  Priyanka: Yeah, and one thing that we were saying offline before we even started talking was one of the skills that's necessary and all of this is being willing to disappoint other people. And we're not, I don't teach that skill. I feel like that could be like a whole podcast episode, Sara.

  Sara: We should do that.

  Priyanka: Like the whole podcast episode should, should be just on how to disappoint other people.

  But Sara, thank you so much for this conversation. I feel like this is just one of many. We are gonna have to have you back, tell us how everyone can find you and reach out to you.

  Sara: I am on Instagram, @SaraFishCoach and Facebook Sara Fisk Coaching. My website is sarafisk.coach. Yes, that is an actual website address and I work with clients one-on-one.

  I work with them in groups, specifically women. The name of my group program is Stop People Pleasing, and we really just dive into this behavior in a very beautifully, manageable, intense, lovely way together because, I just believe that women who are connected to their own wants and desires and they know how to ask for what they need and want and get it and take care of themselves in that process are truly unstoppable.

  Priyanka: I love it. And also, you're the host of a very popular podcast, the Ex-Good Girl Podcast, so make sure everyone that you're listening to her and following. Sara, thank you so much for coming on and if you have to continue this conversation, because I wanna start disappointing women people. I'm like ready.

  Sara: I would love to.

  Priyanka: I'm ready to do it.

  Sara: Let's do it.

  Priyanka: Thanks, Sara. Thanks so much for coming on. Bye bye-Bye. I just love this conversation and I'm so grateful that Sara agreed to come on and have this conversation with us. I know in my experience personally and in what I see with a lot of my clients, we are so used to using external sources of feedback, whether it's feedback from our parents, from a grownup, from a partner, or even from Results. A pluses and the number on the scale going down to validate ourselves. And I think what this conversation was starting to shed light on is what might it be like if we started to validate ourselves and then started making our decisions and our choices.

  I absolutely love this conversation and I cannot wait to keep it going. Internally validating yourself is one of the biggest steps that the high achiever needs to absolutely hit her dream ideal weight. And it is one of the things that I talk about in my masterclass. So while it's available, make sure you go grab it, theunstoppablemombrain.com/training and we are going to talk through the three biggest obstacles that high achievers have in hitting their body goals and how to obliterate them.

  I hope you guys have an amazing week and I will see you next time. Bye.